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S3 E023 Evan Leybourn on Business Agility and Management Competencies

Feb 12, 2023

Bio 

Evan is the Founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute; an international membership body to both champion and support the next-generation of organisations. Companies that are agile, innovative and dynamic – perfectly designed to thrive in today’s unpredictable markets. His experience while holding senior leadership and board positions in both private industry and government has driven his work in business agility and he regularly speaks on these topics at local and international industry conferences.   

Interview Highlights 

01:10 Nomadic childhood 

08:15 Management isn’t innate 

14:54 Confidence, competency and empathy 

21:30 The Business Agility Institute 

31:20 #noprojects 

Social Media/ Websites: 

o   Business Agility Institute https://businessagility.institute/ 

o   The Agile Director (Evan’s personal site): https://theagiledirector.com/         

Books/ Articles         

Episode Transcript 

Ula Ojiaku (Guest Intro): Hello and welcome to the Agile Innovation Leaders podcast. I’m Ula Ojiaku. On this podcast I speak with world-class leaders and doers about themselves and a variety of topics spanning Agile, Lean Innovation, Business, Leadership and much more – with actionable takeaways for you the listener. 

Ula Ojiaku 

I am honoured to have with me Evan Leybourn, he is the founder and CEO of the Business Agility Institute, an international membership body that champions and supports the next generation of organisations. I am really, really pleased to have you here. Thank you for making the time Evan. 

Evan Leybourn 

Thank you Ula, I'm looking forward to this. 

Ula Ojiaku 

Awesome, now, so I always start with my guests and I'm very curious to know who is Evan and how did you evolve to the Evan we know right now today? 

Evan Leybourn 

I suppose that's a long one, isn't it? So I'm Australian, I was born in a small country town in the middle of nowhere, called Armadale, it's about midway between Sydney and Brisbane, about 800 kilometers from both, about 200 kilometers inland, and moved to Sydney when I was fairly young. Now I've spent my entire childhood moving house to house, city to city. So  the idea of stability, I suppose, is not something that I ever really had as a child. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I don't, I had as good as childhood as any, but it's, I love moving, I love new experiences and that's definitely one of the, I think drivers for me in, when I talk about agility, this idea that the world changes around you. I think that a lot of that early childhood just, disruption, has actually put me in a pretty good place to understand and deal with the disruption of the world and then so, well, we've got COVID and everything else right now. So obviously there is a big, there are issues right now, and disruption is the name of the game. I started my career as a techie. I was a systems administrator in Solara Systems, then a programmer, and then a business intelligence data warehousing person. So I've done a lot of that sort of tech space. And, but you mentioned like the Business Agility Institute and this is the organisation I work now, but probably have to go back to 2008 when, I've been using agile, capital A agile, Scrum and XP, primarily a little bit of FDD in a data warehousing business intelligence space. And in 2008, I got promoted to be an executive in the Australian Public Service. And this was, I think, my first exposure to like, before that I'd run teams, I'd run projects, I knew how to do stuff. And like being a first level leader or project manager, it's, everything is personal. I don't need process, I don't need all those things that make organisations work or not work as the case may be, because when you've got seven people reporting to you, like that's a personal form of management. 

So when I became a director, this was, I think, my first exposure into just how different the world was when, well the world of business was. And, I'll be blunt, I wasn't a good director. I got the job because I knew what to do. I knew how to, like, I could communicate in the interview how to like, build this whole of governments program, and that isn't enough. I had this assumption that because I was good at X, I would be good at being a leader of X and that's not the case. And so I actually, there's a concept called the Peter principle, being promoted to your level of incompetence. And that was me. I, it's, that's literally, I didn't know what I was doing, and of course, no one likes to admit to themselves that they're a fraud. It took my boss at the time to tell me that I was arrogant, because, and, and that actually hurt because, it's like, I don't see myself as arrogant, it's not part of my mental model of myself. And so, that push, that sort of sharp jab at my ego, at my sense of self was enough to go, hang on, well, actually, maybe I need to look at what it means to be a leader, what it means to create that kind of skillset, and I had this idea at the time that this thing that I'd been doing back as a techie called agile, maybe that might help me with, help me solve the problems I was facing as an executive – coordination, collaboration, not amongst seven people, but amongst like five, six different government agencies where we're trying to build this whole of government program and long story short, it worked. And this was sort of my first ‘aha moment’ around what we sort of now would call, or what I would now call business agility, though definitely what I was doing back in 2008 was very, a far cry from what I would think of as good business agility. It was more like agile business, but that's what sort of set me up for the last, almost 15 years of my career and helping and advocating for creating organisations that are customer centric with employee engagement, engaged people, that idea of, we can be better if we have, take these values and these principles that we hold so dear in a technology space and we make that possible, we make that tangible in a business context. So it's a bit rambly, but that's kind of the journey that got me to where I am. 

Ula Ojiaku 

Not to me at all. I find it fascinating, you know, hearing people's stories and journeys. Now, there's something you said about, you know, you, weren't a good director, you knew how to do the work, but you just didn't know, or you weren't so good at the leadership aspects and then you had a wake up moment when your boss told you, you were coming off as arrogant. Looking back now and knowing what you now know, in hindsight, what do you think where the behaviours you were displaying that whilst it wasn't showing up to you then, but you now know could be misconstrued as arrogance?  

Evan Leybourn 

So let me take one step. I will answer your question, but I want to take it one step before that, because I've come to learn that this is a systemic problem. So the first thing, I shouldn't have been given that job, right. Now, do I do a good job? Eventually, yes, and I grew into it, and I'm not saying you need to be an expert in the job before you get it. Learning on the job is a big part of it, but we as a society, see that management is innate. It's something that you have, or you don't, and that's completely wrong. You don't look at a nurse or a doctor or an engineer and think, I can do their job. No, you think if I go to university and train, I can do that job. I don't think we look at a janitor and go, I can do their job without training. And a janitor is going to receive on the job, like it might be a couple of days, but they're going to receive on the job training. There was a study by, I think it was CareerBuilder, 58% of managers receive no training. We just have this assumption that I'm looking at my boss, I can do their job better than them. And maybe you can, but better isn't the same as good. Like, if they've reached their levels in competence, yes, you could probably be better, but not good. And so I think the skills of management are, it's an entirely different skillset to what, the thing that you are managing. And so I was good at, I was Director of Business Intelligence, so I was good at business intelligence, data warehousing systems. I didn't have the skills of management, no, running a thirty-five million dollar P&L, coordinating multiple business units, building out those systems and actually designing the systems that enabled effective outcomes. And so I think, I'm going to touch on two things. The first is, people and I, definitely, should have invested in learning how the skills of management before I became a manager. Not so that you're perfect, not so that you're an expert manager before you start, because you will learn more on the job than you ever will, from anything before you, before you do that job. But I didn't, it's the, I didn't know what I didn't know. I didn't know I was a bad manager. I was completely blind to that fact. I knew that outcomes weren’t happening and that I was struggling, but half the time, it's a, why won't people listen to me? Why wouldn't they do what I say? Right, which, okay, yes, definitely not servant leadership material, but I didn't even know servant leadership was a thing. Right, so that's the point. At a minimum, I should have known what it took to be a manager, the skills that were going to be required of me. I should have made some investments in building that before I took that job, which is now the second point as to, they shouldn't have given me the job. And, again, this goes to that systemic problem. 

I forget who like, there was like a Facebook, like, or a Reddit, like screenshot tweet, meme thing. And I saw it like six or seven years ago, and it stuck with me ever since. It was ‘God save us from confident middle-aged white men’. And I wasn't middle-aged, I was the youngest director in the public service at the time, but I definitely was confident. And for those of you not watching the video, I am white. So, the privilege and the assumption, I carried confidence into the interview, of course I can do the job, I run this team, I know how to do, like I know business intelligence and I know how to design business development systems, and it's like, sure it's a different scale, but it's the same thing. And because I came across as confident, because I thought I could do the job. I thought it was just what I was doing before, plus one, right. But it wasn't, because sure, I could do the plus one part, but that was 30% of the role. I was completely missing everything else. And so that's that other systemic problem, which I have learnt, sadly, over the last decade and a half, in terms of just, we overvalue confidence, then empathy, we overvalue confidence over skill. And I had one, I was empathetic. I didn't have, and, but I was weak at the skills, the management skills, I should have had all three, competence, confidence and empathy, but we value in interviews, as hiring managers, we interview confidence a lot more than the other two. And that is, I think the, one of the real systemic problems we have in the world, especially in tech, but just generally in the world. 

Ula Ojiaku 

Awesome. I mean, I was going to ask you, you know, what were those skills, but you've kind of summarised in terms of competence, confidence and empathy. So, well, I'm glad to hear the story had a happier ending, because you definitely changed course. So now knowing, again, what you now know, and you're speaking to Evan of 2008, what are the things, before going for that job, would you have told him to skill up in to be prepared for management?  

Evan Leybourn 

So, let me get very specific. So confidence, competence, empathy for me, those are the, so  this is something that I came up with, or I don't know where this idea emerged from, it's something that I've carried with me for the better part of a decade. For me, those three attributes are my measures of success. If I can have all three, that's what can make me successful. Now in terms of, going deeper than some of the specific skills that we need, that I needed, so the first one, emotional intelligence. Now, I know that's broad and fuzzy, but there were many times, and many times since I'm not saying I'm perfect and I'm not perfect now. This last week, there have been challenges where it's like I've misobserved, and I wish I had seen that, but being able to understand when you’re not hearing somebody, when they're talking to you and you're listening, but not hearing, and so the emotional intelligence to sort of read and understand that there's a gap, there's something missing between what is being said and what is being processed up there in the little grey cells. The other one that, a couple, I'll call it emergent strategy. So, this idea of the three-year plan is completely ridiculous, it's been wrong for 30 years, but we don't develop enough of the counter skill, which is being able to take an uncertain environment, where there's insufficient information and ambiguity, make a decision, but design that decision with feedback loops so that, you know the decision is probably, right, that strategic decision is probably wrong, so rather than sort of run with it for three months and then make another decision, it's designed with these feedback loops, so it's, the next decision is better because you, it's the whole strategic system is designed to create those loops. And that was a key skill that I was missing, in that, this is the government, like I was a Prince 2 Project Manager, an MSP programme manager. I knew how to build the Gantt charts, and I was also an agilest, like I've been doing Scrum for the past five years, but like Scrum at a team level and agility at a business level was not something that many people had even thought about. And so, all of the programme level strategy was not agile. Again, this is 2008, and so we had this,  if I had known how to build an emergent, adaptive strategy, a lot of the challenges, the systems level challenges would have been resolved. And I could go a long time, but I'll give you one more.  

So, I'm going to say communication, but not in the way that I think many people think about it. It's not about like conveying ideas or conveying messages, but it is that empathetic communication. It goes with that emotional intelligence and so forth, but it's the ability to communicate a vision, the ability to communicate an idea, and intent, not just the ability to communicate a fact or a requirement, like those are important too, but I could do those, but I had a large teams of teams across, not all of them reported to me, this was a whole government program. So there were people who reported to the program, but their bosses were in a completely different company, government department to me. And so I needed to learn how to align all of these people towards a common vision, a common goal beyond just a here's your requirements, here's the Gantt chart for the program. Please execute on this 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, right, which, sure, they did, but it's, they would, what's the saying? I think it was Deming, give someone a measurable target and they will destroy the company in order to make it. And you give them these, it's like, they will do like what that Gantt chart says, even if the world changes around them and it's the wrong thing to do, and we know, we've learned a lot better as a world, the idea of program level agility is pretty standard now, but 2008, it definitely, wasn't definitely not in government, definitely not in Australia. So, if I had been able to communicate intent and vision and get them aligned to that vision, and not just aligned to a Gantt chart, we would have been a lot more successful, we'd have a lot more buy-in, a lot more engagement. So, there's more, a lot more, but those would be, I think, some of the three that I would say really, really learn before you get the job.  

Ula Ojiaku 

Well, thanks for that. I'd like to just dive in a bit more, because you said something about the designing, you would have benefited if you knew how to design, build and adapt, that adaptive emerging strategy. How do you do that now? What's the process for doing this?  

Evan Leybourn 

So let me jump to the present. So, I run the Business Agility Institute. We're a fiercely independent advocacy and research organisation. We've been around for about four years, we don't do consulting, we're funded by our members primarily. Now, one of the very first publications that we put together was something called The Domains of Business Agility. It’s not a framework, it doesn't tell you how to do it, it’s not like Scrum or SAFe or Beyond Budgeting. Actually, Beyond Budgeting is not quite, if Bjarte heard me call Beyond Budgeting a framework, I'd be in trouble. It's, I think of it, I call it the ‘don't forget’ model, because if you're going to change an organisation, these are the domains that you can't forget. The customers at the centre. Around that I would call the relationships, the workforce, your external partners, your vendors and contractors and suppliers, and your Board of Directors, because they represent ownership of the business. Around that are the nine, what I think of as ‘what's domains’, right? These are the things that you need to focus on, right, there's leadership domains, individual domains, and so forth. One of them is strategic agility, otherwise known as adaptive strategy or emergent strategy. Now, one of the reasons that is one of the core domains of business agility and has been since 2018, I think, when we first published this, is because this is one of the fundamental capabilities for an organisation to not survive, but to thrive in uncertainty. Now, there are different approaches and, like, there's a whole bunch of different frameworks and approaches to BS, like four quadrant matrixes and tools and canvases. I'm not going to go to any of that, because A, all the tools are fine, right. So, find the one that works for you, Google will be your friend there, but what I want to do is, however, just look at what the characteristics of all those tools, what do they have in common? And I mean, I do that by really telling a little bit of a story. We, one of the things that we run is the Business Agility Conference in New York. It did run every March in New York city until 2020, well actually it ran in 2020. I know the exact date COVID was declared a pandemic because I was literally onstage, because I had to tell our delegates that this was now officially a pandemic, and if you needed to leave early to get flights and so forth, because we had delegates from Denmark and Switzerland, then please feel free to leave and all that kind of thing. Now, this isn't about the conference, but it's about what was happening before the conference. So you had this emergent problem, COVID-19, starting in China, hitting Italy, and I think it was like February 28 or March 1st, thereabouts, the first case hit in America, and it was California, I think it was Orange County, it was the first case. And what happened was we started to see companies change. Now, I describe it, well, sorry, these aren’t my words, I'm stealing this from a comic I saw on Facebook at the time, we saw companies responding and companies reacting. Now, this is the difference between strategic agility and non strategic agility. So what was happening, so the first company pulled out from the conference, travel ban, our people can't attend. Within a week we'd lost about 50% of our delegates, right. Now, remember all we know at this point, this isn't the COVID of today, right? All we knew was there was a disease, it was more contagious than the flu, it was deadlier than the flu and it had hit America, right. We didn't know much more than that. We certainly didn't imagine it would be two years later and we're still dealing with it. I remember thinking at the time it's like, all right, we’ll have a plan for like September, we'll do something in September, we’ll be fine by then, and a famous last words. But companies had to make a decision. Every company didn't have a choice, you were forced to make a decision. Now, the decisions were, like, do I go to a conference or not? Right. Do I ban travel for my employees? Do we work from home? But that decision came later, but there was a first decision to make and, you know what, there's no, there was no difference between companies, those companies that responded and reacted made the first decision the same, right. It's what came next, right. Those companies that were reacting, because every day there was something new that came up, a new piece of information, more infections, a new city, new guidance from the World Health Organisation or the CDC, and companies had to make decisions every single day. And those that were reacting, took the information of the day and made the decision. Those that were responding, took the decision they made yesterday, the new information, looked at the pathway that was emerging, that's that emergent strategy out of it and made the next decision. And so those strategic decisions that they were making as an organisation were built on the ones that came before, rather than discreet decision after decision after decision after decision. And so what ended up happening is you had those companies who were able to build a coherent strategy on insufficient information that grew and adapted and emerged as new information emerged, were better able to respond to the pandemic than those that were chaotically making decisions. And you could see that in something as simple as how quickly they could start working from home, or how quickly they made the decision to work from home, because those that responded, they had this thread of strategy, and so they were able to make the decision to work from home much faster, and then they were able to execute on that much faster. Whereas those that were not, did not. And I think of this as going to the agile gym, or business agility gym, no company was prepared for the pandemic. No company had a strategy paper of, if there's a worldwide pandemic, these are the things that we’re going to do. But those companies that have practiced emergent strategy, right, in their product, in how they engage with the marketplace, they'd sort of, they’d taken concepts like lean startup and adopted some of those practices into their organisation. Those who had been to the agile gym, they knew how to respond. They weren't prepared for the scale of pandemic, no one had done emergent strategy at that scale, but they knew, they had the muscle memory, they knew how to do it, and so they just scaled up and operated in that new context. And it's like literally going to the gym, it's, if I build up my muscles, I mean, I definitely don't go to the gym enough, but if I did, right, I could lift more weights. So if a friend goes, hey mate, can you help me move a fridge, right, I'm able to do that because I have the capabilities in my body to do that. If I don't go to the gym, which I don't, not enough, right, and my mate goes, hey, can you help me move a fridge? It’s like, I can help, but I'm not going to be that much help. It's, I'll stop it from tilting, right. I'm not going to be the lifter, right. So, the capabilities of that business agility enabled that emergent strategy or the responsiveness during a pandemic, even though no one was prepared for it. And that's kind of really what I see as organisations as they adjust to this new world. 

Ula Ojiaku 

Now you have this book, actually you’ve authored a couple of books at the very least, you know, there’s #noprojects – A Culture of Continuous Value and Directing the Agile Organisation: A Lean Approach to Business Management Which one would you want us to discuss?  

Evan Leybourn 

So #noprojects is the most recent book, Directing the Agile Organisation is definitely based on my experience, it's drawing upon that experience back in 2008, I started writing it in 2009. It is out of date, the ideas that are in that book are out of date, I wouldn't suggest anyone reads it unless you're more interested in history. There are ideas, so sometimes I'll talk about the difference between business agility and agile business, where business agility is definitely, it's creating this space where things can happen properly through values and culture and practices and processes. But also it's very human, it's very focused on the outcomes, whereas agile business is more, how do we apply Scrum to marketing teams? And so my first book is unfortunately much more agile business than business agility.  

Ula Ojiaku 

Okay, so let's go to #noprojects then. There is a quote in a review of the book that says, OK, the metrics by which we have historically defined success are no longer applicable. 

We need to re-examine how value is delivered in the new economy. What does that mean, what do you mean by that?  

Evan Leybourn 

So, the reason I wrote the #noprojects book, and this predates the Institute. So, this is back when I was a consultant. I've run a transformation programme for a large multinational organisation and their project management process was overwhelming. Everything was a project, the way they structured their organisation was that the doers were all contractors or vendors, every employee was a Project Manager. And so what ended up happening was they've got this project management process and it would take, I'm not exaggerating nine months, 300 and something signatures to start a project, even if that project was only like six weeks long. There were cases where the project management cost was seven to eight times the cost of the actual execution. Now that's an extreme case, certainly, and not all were that ratio, but that was kind of the culture of the organisation, and they were doing it to try and manage risk and ensure outcomes, and there's a whole bunch of logical fallacies and business fallacies in that, but that's another matter altogether, but what was happening is they were like, I'm going to focus in on one issue. I said there were many, but one issue was they valued output over outcome. They valued getting a specific piece of work, a work package completed to their desired expectations and they valued that more than the value that that work would produce. And I've seen this in my career for decades, where you'd run a project, again, I used to be a Project Manager, I'm going back like Prince2, you've got this benefits realisation phase at the end of the project. The Project Manager’s gone, the project team is gone, the project sponsor is still around, but they're onto whatever's next. Half the time benefits realisation fell to the responsibility of finance to go, okay, did we actually get the value out of that project? And half the time they never did it, in fact more than half the time they never actually did it. It was just a yes, tick. And for those of you who have written business cases, the benefits that you define in the business cases are ridiculous half the time, they pluck it from the air, it's this bloody assumption that, hey, if we do this, it'll be better. I've seen business cases where it's like, we will save $10 million for this organisation by making like page reloads, half a second faster. So every employee will get three minutes back in their day, three minutes times how many employees, times how average salary equals $10 million. It's like how are you going to use that three minutes in some productive way? Is that actually a benefit or are you just trying to upgrade your system, and you're trying to convince finance that they need to let go of the purse strings so that you can do something that you want to do. So if we actually care about the value of things, then we should be structuring the work, not around the outcome, sorry, not around the output, but around the value, we should be incrementally measuring value, we should be measuring the outcome on a regular basis. Agile, we should be delivering frequently, measuring the value, and if we're not achieving the value that we're expecting, well, that's a business decision, right. What do we do with that piece of information? And sometimes it may be continue, because we need to do this, other times it may be, is there a better way to do this? And once you're locked into that traditional project plan, then sure, you might be agile inside the project plan, you might have sprints and Scrum and dev ops and all that kind of stuff, but if you can't change the business rationale as quickly as you can change the technology like the sprint backlog, then what's the point? 

Ula Ojiaku 

So you mentioned something and I know that some of the listeners or viewers might be wondering what's business outcome versus output? Can you define that?  

Evan Leybourn 

So, there is a definition in the book, which I wrote like six years ago. So I'm going to paraphrase because I don't remember exactly the words that I wrote, but an output is the thing, the product, the tangible elements of what is created, right. In writing a book, the output is the book. In this podcast, the output is the recording, the podcast that we're doing right now, the outcome and the impact is what we want to achieve from it. So, the output of the podcast is we have a recording, but if no one listens to it, then why? The outcome is that, well, the ultimate outcome is changing hearts and minds. Well, at least that’s why I’m here. We want to create some kind of change or movements in, well in your case with your listeners, in the case of the book, the readers, we want to create a new capability, a new way of looking at the world, a new way of doing things. And so the outcome is, hopefully measurable, but not always. But it is that goal, that intent.  

Ula Ojiaku 

Exactly. So, I mean, for me, outcomes are like, what they find valuable, it’s either you're solving and helping them solve a problem or putting them in a position, you know, to get to achieve some gains. Now let's just, are there any other books you might want to recommend to the audience, that have impacted you or influenced you? 

Evan Leybourn 

Yep. So I'm going to recommend three books. Two are very old books. So the first book is Deming, or actually anything by Deming, but Out of the Crisis is probably the best one, the first one, otherwise The New Economics. Deming is coming out of lean and manufacturing and the Japanese miracle, but he might've been writing in the eighties, seventies, but it's as agile as it gets, right. His 14 points for managers reads like something that would emerge from the Agile Manifesto, right. So I definitely love, I will go to Deming quite regularly in terms of just great concepts and the articulation of it. 

The other book that I recommend for the idea, I have to admit it's a bit of a hard read, is The Goal by Eliyahu Goldratt. The Theory of Constraints, and if you Google Evan's Theory of Agile Constraints, and I think we're almost out of time, so I don't really have time to talk about it, but it's the Theory of Constraints, both in a practical sense as to how you actually optimise a process, but it also applies when you're looking at it from a holistic metaphorical standpoint, because I like to say, there is a constraint to agility in your organisation. You’re only as agile as your least agile function, and it's not it IT software anymore, it's some other part of your business. You might have a sprint that can create a potentially shippable product increment every two weeks, but if it takes you three months to get a hiring ticket, or nine months get a budget change approved or six weeks to, until the next project control board, you're not, your agility is not measured in weeks. Your agility is still measured in months. Yeah. So Theory of Constraints, the book’s a bit hard to read, it's definitely dated, but the concept is so powerful.  

Evan Leybourn 

So the last one that I'm going to recommend is, Sooner Safer Happier by Jon Smart. It's a relatively recent book. I, it's the book I've read most recently, which is partly why it's on the top of my mind. It is a very powerful, it really touches to the human sense of agility. It's in the title - Sooner Safer Happier, sooner is a technical value, right. Safer, happier, right? These are more than that, these are human values, these are human benefits. I know I said  three, but I'm just going to add a fourth, one more for the road. It comes to what I was talking about early in terms of my own experiences as a leader. And the book didn't exist at the time, but Dare to Lead by Brené Brown. Growth mindset is a bit of a buzzword these days, and there are definitely more mindsets than just growth and fixed. There are different kinds of mindsets that we hold, but just as a way of getting people to understand that you don't have to have all the answers, that you don't have to be right. So the reason I was arrogant, I was called arrogant by my boss at the time was because I didn't have a growth mindset. I didn't know I was wrong, or I didn't know what I didn't know. And it took some poking to make myself realise that I need to open up and I needed to be willing to learn because I didn't have all the answers. And the assumption that as a manager, as a leader, you're meant to have all the answers is a very toxic, cultural, systemic problem. So I think Brené Brown and the growth mindset work Dare to Lead is such a powerful concept that the more we can get people sort of internalising it, the better. 

Ula Ojiaku 

So thank you for that. How can the audience engage with you? Where can they find you?  

Evan Leybourn 

Yep. So, LinkedIn is probably the easiest way. I'm just Evan Leybourn, I think I’m the only Evan Leybourn on the planet, so I should be fairly easy to find. Otherwise, look at businessagility.institute We have a very comprehensive library of case studies and references, research that we've published, the models, like the domains that we have a new behavioural model that's coming out fairly soon, and you can always reach me through the Business Agility Institute as well.  

Ula Ojiaku 

Okay. And for like leaders and organisations that want to engage with the Business Agility Institute, would there be any, are there any options for them, with respect to that? 

Evan Leybourn 

So individuals can become individual members, it's 50 bucks a year, that's our COVID pricing. We cut it by 50%, at the beginning of COVID, because a lot of people are losing their jobs and we wanted to make it possible, easier for them to maintain as members. That gives you access to like, full access to everything. We publish books as well, so you can actually download full eBooks of the ones that we've published, and also obviously supports us and helps us grow and helps us keep doing more. We are however primarily funded by our corporate members, so it's what we call journey companies, those companies who are on the journey to business agility. So TD bank and DBS bank, for example, are two of our members, Telstra in Australia. So there is value in corporate membership and I'm not going to do a sales pitch if you are, if you want to know more, reach out to me and I'll definitely give you the sales pitch. 

Ula Ojiaku 

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. These will be in the show notes, and I want to say thank you so much, Evan, for making the time for this conversation. I definitely learned a lot and it was a pleasure having you here.  

Evan Leybourn 

Thank you. I really appreciate being here.  

That’s all we have for now. Thanks for listening. If you liked this show, do subscribe at www.agileinnovationleaders.com or your favourite podcast provider. Also share with friends and do leave a review on iTunes. This would help others find this show. I’d also love to hear from you, so please drop me an email at ula@agileinnovationleaders.com Take care and God bless!